Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

being able to experience is what is important for me in the question of "is it murder or not?"

Very interesting point of view... But if identity doesn't matter and being able to experience does, some things can't be experienced without cognitive capabilities either. What can a human infant experience that an adult pig can't? And if there is nothing here, why do we care about human infant being murdered (maybe even more than a human adult being murdered) but not about a poor pig being killed in a slaughterhouse?

i don't know what an infant or fetus can experience

9:10 PM

which is why i am very careful about making a call on that

Alejandro

Very interesting point of view... But if identity doesn't matter and being able to experience does, some things can't be experienced without cognitive capabilities either. What can a human infant experience that an adult pig can't? And if there is nothing here, why do we care about human infant being murdered (maybe even more than a human adult being murdered) but not about a poor pig being killed in a slaughterhouse?

because we are humans and morality makes no sense whatsoever, we are built to protect our species and will kill others to do so

i am pro-choice as in i think people should make moral choice by themselves, but i wouldn't abort myself (edited)

9:11 PM

who knows if in 10-20-30-100 years we will find out that fetus actually is conscious

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

who knows if in 10-20-30-100 years we will find out that fetus actually is conscious

i think its okey if they dont have a brain yet

Txoka

i think its okey if they dont have a brain yet

even in your situation

9:12 PM

personally im more lax

I'm not sure why fetuses/infants/abortion/murder is a topic here

on the other hand, in the future humanity might think that even euthanasia is fine becaue murder is only bad if you don't consent for it

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

on the other hand, in the future humanity might think that even euthanasia is fine becaue murder is only bad if you don't consent for it

i think that already

Wait, someone thinks it isn't fine?

i think it's fine too

9:13 PM

but where is it legal?

Unfortunately, I'm aware of only few European countries

anyway aya is right

But it can change

anyway, i dont think we can reach any type of consistent moral argument about any of this unless we completely destroy morality as we know it which i dont think is desirable

Also, even if a fetus or infant have some consciousness... I don't believe it matters more than a pig's consciousness just because they are human. I believe that in the end our experiences, interactions, memories, feelings etc. matter even more than cognitive capabilities.

so imma go sleep

Alejandro

Also, even if a fetus or infant have some consciousness... I don't believe it matters more than a pig's consciousness just because they are human. I believe that in the end our experiences, interactions, memories, feelings etc. matter even more than cognitive capabilities.

interactions memories and feelings are just a result of cognitive capabilities

cognitive capabilities are certainly necessary to have them, indeed.

so they are probably much more meaningful in a human than in a pig which probably has a much more limited experience

I hope Nifty can manage to get some sleep

Good night if so

Txoka

because we are humans and morality makes no sense whatsoever, we are built to protect our species and will kill others to do so

but as i said:

Aya

I hope Nifty can manage to get some sleep

Good night if so

i wonder that every day

Yup, looking for moral consistency is like looking for orange blue.

Alejandro

Also, even if a fetus or infant have some consciousness... I don't believe it matters more than a pig's consciousness just because they are human. I believe that in the end our experiences, interactions, memories, feelings etc. matter even more than cognitive capabilities.

i agree that it doesn't matter more

now, what does "matter" mean here?

9:19 PM

have fun with that

Usually I'm the one people are jumping at for being too cold and "dehumanizing" about tulpas so today was a bit jarring

i enjoyed it

Aya

Usually I'm the one people are jumping at for being too cold and "dehumanizing" about tulpas so today was a bit jarring

but i hope you get its not a evil thing. i dont hate tulpas or think that they should be slaves of the host or whatever, we just totally disagree on what matters in this regard

I enjoyed it too, overall. But I had a feeling it have been getting too agitated in some moments.

which is a fundamental moral choice that we wont just logic into agreeing

i think that for 7 people discussing it didn't go that bad (edited)

Reguile

Yup, looking for moral consistency is like looking for orange blue.

yeah, it's interesting how every generation... well, every human really, feels they got the morality right this time

9:27 PM

ok some people don't pretend they did

How do you feel about either having to forget morality or ignore logic sometimes? (edited)

9:28 PM

Its weird

i think whole conversation i was morality-agnostic here?

Sometimes "good"morality just doesn't forget long-term logic.

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

i think whole conversation i was morality-agnostic here?

I think it was moral from the start, you were just arguing that wrong is to end self awareness and not to end identity. Or thats what i understood.

Aya

Usually I'm the one people are jumping at for being too cold and "dehumanizing" about tulpas so today was a bit jarring

i wonder what you say that other people find dehumanizing

Because we can assume by murder we all understood "bad" i guess

Txoka

I think it was moral from the start, you were just arguing that wrong is to end self awareness and not to end identity. Or thats what i understood.

i said that experience would matter more than identity, but i didn't say at which point i would draw the line (edited)

9:32 PM

i was asking questions!

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

i said that experience would matter more than identity, but i didn't say at which point i would draw the line (edited)

That weight is also set by morality tho

9:33 PM

Anyway it was fun

9:33 PM

Now i am going to sleep for real

it was a technicality for me

9:34 PM

i just didn't get why forming identity would be the line (edited)

9:34 PM

anyway!

9:34 PM

have a good night

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

i wonder what you say that other people find dehumanizing

Hm, looking back I said "Headmates are essentially thought patterns, if they 'leave' that just means their thought pattern isn't being used" when explaining that it's okay to reject walk-ins. Then I asked what they think a headmate is...

ohh

Although I do consider headmates people and would use pronouns that apply to people, I will question what someone means when they say a headmate is a "person." Sometimes the word can be used to imply there's a whole human being contained within the head of another human being with a whole separate life they are living even when outside the awareness of front. That kind of mindset can also make tulpa creation very difficult, as one might sit and wait and wait for a response that never comes because they expect it to be outside their own mental functioning

Aya

Usually I'm the one people are jumping at for being too cold and "dehumanizing" about tulpas so today was a bit jarring

Welcome to the tulpa moderate club! People have both criticized me for dehumanizing tulpas and for being delusional because I think tulpas are people (edited)

5:21 PM

Honestly reading this conversation feels... weird. Your views on tulpamancy will always be scrutinized. If you refer to tulpas as "it", you will be judged. If you refer to tulpas as they/them, you will be judged. I get the sense there are people hoping to resolve judgement because they're not satisfied with "agree to disagree". However, I think it's important to understand that people will make assumptions about you even if that's not what you're going for. It happens to me all the time- any time I bring up a model people say I overcomplicate things. Not everyone likes my ideas and they judge me as someone who can't teach right because I don't do it their way. It's okay to disagree and for people to not understand your approach. I think these conversations are important, but when it's more about trying to justify your position, everyone gets tired of it

I don’t think that only one of „it” or „they” approach is correct, those are not exclusive terms and you can consider both of them in different contexts and both have their place. I personally don’t judge anyone if I disagree with their views or methods, I just think some things can be impractical, not healthy or disruptive. I’m a fan of keeping things simpler, but if something works for someone then who am I to judge. What I see in everyone’s tulpamancy practice is that in tulpamancy it’s the expactations that drive your experience, so in my opinion any method will work given enough time really. It’s just that simplicity and quick results is what I believe will benefit tulpamancers. Those might not be priorities for other people. (edited)

@Lynn [TTG]

Hi

5:03 PM

Do i repost?

5:03 PM

Or no

You should probably repost. A lot of your messages got drowned out, having them all in one place would be helpful

alright

5:13 PM

well i have something that can help people get rid of their fear of parroting

5:15 PM

Our mindset is firstly that it doesn't really matter in the end who is generating the responses because they are generated by the mind, and if associated with a thoughtform will belong to it Secondly, that it doesn't matter if you are parroting because it is still the thoughtform essentially, like when you remote control a dream character, you may be controlling it but it is still the dream character doing the action (is atleast a good way to look at it)

5:17 PM

and that lastly, thoughtforms have a degree of autonomy to begin with. iirc, pretty much anything imagined can be considered a thoughtform. if you imagine a house for example, you are probably not piecing together every little detail consciously, it is more of something generated. and similarly, even if you parrot your tulpa, at some point it will become automatically generated to save the effort

That's a nice model, I like it

A long kiss goodnight

That's a nice model, I like it

the less you fear parroting, the better off you will be. any revisions you recommend?

I don't have any suggestions, it's really solid. I do feel that it's like a more clean version of other advice I have seen. I don't know if it's 100% original but it's definitely laying out ideas a lot of people have all in a neat explanation

i mean, it is probably out there somewhere. but we didn't pull anything from guides, maybe from conversations subconsciously. we dont read guides anymore, we lose interest far to quickly

There are a lot of similar ideas in tulpamancy. It's pretty fascinating to see how people's different takes can be boiled down sometimes

also i would never use "clean" to describe our explanations for anything. our main problem with explaining is overthinking, and it causes it to be clunky and seem half assed even though a lot of effort goes into it

Sometimes just spitting it out is what makes it clean lol

5:28 PM

Trying to organize it may be the overcomplicating part

5:28 PM

That doesn't usually happen when I do it though, the way I talk is more rambly and such

it is something i could put in the website

You could!

1

5:31 PM

=== One thing I have been wondering with my newer approach inspired from Zen is if it's actually effective or not. When I share the newer advice, I have the feeling people are still struggling with parrotnoia. The thinking is it's purely a mindset issue and if people recognize talking to your tulpa isn't going to be an alien or foreign experience from before, their anxiety will decrease. However, I don't know if that's actually happening For context, I'll try and grab some links: https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431895651266330644/1035301293725581372 https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/821731704112152576/1024296248188092446 https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431591449348276224/1022303762762694687 (edited)

well, the people we explained it to

5:32 PM

are tending to do good

5:32 PM

@Holistic Paradox is the best example i can give

Hey, what's up!

i think they struggled with it before we helped them, but my memory is fuzzy so im not sure

No, not at all

5:33 PM

I just was on the fence on whether I should create a tulpa

5:33 PM

And really, I have no regrets lol

but did my advice make it easier?

Tulpa creation is really easy

Lynn [TTG]

but did my advice make it easier?

For helping me make my tulpa? No, not really. For helping me understand the concept of a tulpa in the first place (basically kick-starting this whole journey)? Hell yeah.

5:35 PM

I feel like tulpa creation is something you have to figure out for yourself

5:35 PM

The most important thing, mindset

and that was the point of the advice, because demystifying the tulpa to give you a better understanding is the first step in effectively making a tulpa

Yep! Agreed

5:37 PM

Tulpas are mystified too much

5:37 PM

It's really bad for beginners

5:37 PM

Pouring water on the fire